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Senator McCain reacts to the Liberal interpretation of Vietnam History:
An old incident, but worth revisiting:
Senator Harkin described Southeast Asia following the US withdraw as "Nothing Happened." That's pretty close to being a holocaust denier. Senator Harkin was trying to make a point about how a US withdraw from Iraq would lead to no sever consequences....Just like after our Vietnam withdraw, "nothing happened."
How quickly these lefties forget: The US withdrawal led directly to Millions of refugees (many of whom became known as "boat people), three million murdered in Cambodia, about one third of the entire Vietnamese population put in prison camps and well over 165,000 Vietnamese executed... is the same in liberal-land as "nothing happened." Senator Harkin then goes on to refer to how we now enjoy the cruise ships and wonder beaches of Vietnam. This man is beneath contempt and McCain's reaction is spot on.
H/T: Say Anything
More of the liberal mind at work; Historic revisionism also occurred recently as an Editor for the Seattle Times described WWII history this way: "What Hitler was demanding at Munich was not unreasonable", in reference to Hitlers demands that Czechoslovakia relinquish its territory to Germany known as the Sudetenland, because most people living there spoke German.
16 hours ago
Everything you describe as a result of us a leaving Vietnam, the boat people, Cambodian death camps, the "re-education" camps, etc... were also a result of our involvement in the first place. War causes chaos and misery and destabilization in its wake. Our choosing to wage a war in southeast Asia is the cause of all those things. Expanding the war into Cambodia directly resulted in the Kmher rouge coming to power, they were a fringe group at best until our expansion of the war caused famine and chaos. We backed their regime after leaving Vietnam. The boat people and the re-education camps were disgraceful and horrific, but not any more so then the millions we murdered by waging the war in the first place. Had we simply worked with the Vietnamese on a solution that would have allowed them to be unified and free from French colonialism in the 50s, we could have averted all of the misery. The result would have been a moderate communist, but reforming Vietnam that welcomes our friendship and contributes to the world. Kind of like now. Unlike the situation with north and south korea where one country is a prosperous and open nation and the other is a corrupt and backwards source of potential terrorism and misery. that is what would have been the best case scenario of a "victory" in the Vietnam war. America is as much to blame for the aftermath of the Vietnam war as the north Vietnamese are. we caused all the chaos, misery, anger, and unrest in the first place. Our war killed upwards of 10 million south east Asians from direct combat, 4-5 million Vietnamese, 2-4 million Cambodians, and another 1-2 million Laotians. We have killed more Vietnamese sense the war ended that the casualties we suffered during our fighting there as we kill almost 5000 a year with left over munitions. Agent orange kills thousands more. Communism is a corrupt and inefficient form of Gov. but our hands are covered in blood from our good intentions.
ReplyDeleteThat is a pretty strong "blame America first" statement, and like most opinions from the left, there are elements of truth swimming in an ocean of misrepresentations. US policy since the Truman administration was to contain the spread of Communism around the globe. History has proved Truman’s policy to have been the correct policy with the collapse of the Communist global empire in the late 1980’s. Kennedy and Johnson were executing the Truman doctrine.
ReplyDeleteHad the communists not tried to take over all of Vietnam through their aggressive expansionist war in Vietnam… and many other areas around the globe, none of this would have happened either; yet you flat-out fail to mention that. You simply, and without any reservations or qualifications place the entire blame and burden on US efforts to stop the spread of Communism. How convenient.
Vietnam was a war fought within a much wider context. It was in essence a battle in a wider war against global communist expansionism. We lost the battle in Vietnam but won the larger war. Just as the North lost many battles during the Civil War, but triumphed in the end. It was Communist expansionism that was to blame for that war… not American efforts to halt that expansionism in Vietnam and else ware around the world. It was Communist regimes that actually committed the acts of genocidal murder, not the United States. Yet you choose to blame the fire-brigade and absolve the arsonists of all responsibility. Good lord!
Had the communists not tried to take over all of Vietnam through their aggressive expansionist war in Vietnam… and many other areas around the globe, none of this would have happened either; yet you flat-out fail to mention that. You simply, and without any reservations or qualifications place the entire blame and burden on US efforts to stop the spread of Communism. How convenient.
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So lets address this. South Vietnam was purely a construct of the west. There would have been no "expansion" by the communists in the north of Vietnam had their never been a "South Vietnam" to expand into. How nice that we can pat ourselves on the back for thwarting "global communism" at the expense of millions of lives in southeast Asia. Never mind the fact that there was no monolithic global communist entity to begin with as proven by the hatred between the Vietnamese communists for the Chinese communists, and the infighting and hatred between the soviets and the Chinese and the Vietnamese. The fact that the Cambodian communists were a different flavor all together, later defeated by the Vietnamese communists, and the fact that the Vietnamese communists fought a war against the Chinese communists after the American war further proves this point. There was never a global network of communist nations anymore then there has been a global network of capitalist nations. And if we wanted to fight communism in southeast Asia (perhaps a worthy goal), why not fight it through subtle diplomacy and influence, allowing the Vietnamese their independence from French rule under a unified Vietnam. we would have been heroes in the eyes of the Vietnamese. Ho idolized America and its fight for independence. Yes he was communist, but we had more in common then we had differences. fight his tendency towards communism by embracing his nationalism. But no, we had to leap first for the gun and the bomb to devastate the country and its people. If we were so concerned with what was best for Vietnam, why did we ignore their desire to be free from French colonialism. why did we try and convert the country to catholicism through a puppet regime in South Vietnam? I'm not blaming America first, but if we are the ones to wage a war, then the responsibility, good and bad, is on our shoulders. pat yourself on the back for our countries 50 year war against communism, but it was the Vietnamese people who payed the majority of that price in blood and misery.
Excellent comment, but once again, a few truths in an ocean of misrepresentations; Indeed just as there was a lose alliance of democracies (and a few ugly right-wing dictatorships) that stood up to global communism, there was a lose alliance of communist countries relentlessly attempting to spread the ideology world-wide. Vietnam did not equip its own army out of thin air. All of their armaments were supplied by the Chinese, the Soviets and others. John McCain himself was shot down by a SAM missile supplied by the Soviets, was captured by soldiers equipped with Chinese manufactured AK47’s and, was interrogated by Cuban intelligence officers, so to imply that there was no such thing as coordinated international communist effort to take over the world is simply historically inaccurate and is inconsistent not only with the historic events on the ground but with the words of Soviet, Chinese, and other communist leaders themselves. It was called the Cold War…. In case anyone missed it. The fact that many of these regimes were suspicious of each other and even fought each other later is neither here nor there.
ReplyDelete“It was the Vietnamese people who paid the majority of that price in blood and misery”? Hardly, millions upon millions of Russians, Chinese and others perished at the hands of the communist regimes, in unspeakable prison camps known and Gulags, or “reeducation camps in China. Millions died in wars all over the world from Cuba to Angola to Afghanistan, to El Salvador, to Ethiopia, to Korea to Nicaragua to Indonesia to Chile…etc……. Many also died in wars that were only loosely related to the direct conflict between East and West, such as the Middle East wars, the Arabs supported by the Soviets and Israel by the West. This was a world war in every since, and Vietnam was one theater in that war; an ugly theater. The US has every reason to be proud for having waged that war with the best of intentions. Like in any war, there were actions taken occasionally that did not live up to the ideals that we fought for. But to place all of the misery at the doorstep of the United States is simply dishonest, historically wrong, and pathologically self-hating.
The Vietnamese communists were not interested in "global domination". The Soviets did show a desire to expand their empire, but the Vietnamese were interested in solely one thing, a unified Vietnam free from foreign/colonial rule. this includes the Soviets and the Chinese. The Vietnamese were never a threat to America. America could have used their desire for a unified and independent Vietnam to push them gently towards a sort of socialist democracy, forming a natural peaceful alliance with them against the Chinese and perhaps the soviet communists, but instead we chose to side with the French and their colonial interests in continuing to exploit and dominate the country of Vietnam. Later our interests were to eventual work towards a not only capitalist Vietnam (again, perhaps a worthwhile goal in theory), but also catholic one ( an arrogant goal). As you have stated Vietnam was but one theater in a much larger global ideological conflict, and perhaps it is impossible to discuss the Vietnam war without also discussing it in the larger context of the cold war, but to the Vietnamese it was not a war of global ideologies but a war of independence. To a Vietnamese growing up in a small village of "south" Vietnam whos' brother was fighting the American imperialists because his girlfriend was killed by American bombs, and whos' sister might be a whore in Saigon trying to make ends meet anyway she could to survive, and who's father fought the French and who lives in fear of retribution from extremist Viet Cong nationalists as well as often young and ignorant, miserable, and frustrated American soldiers, being a pawn in a global struggle between 2 competing global ideologies was the last thing on his mind. All he wanted was to survive. What right did we have to plunge the Vietnamese into hell for our global pursuits and communist paranoia? That is what I was referring to when making the statement that the Vietnamese bore the brunt of the cost of the war in blood and misery. The war that we pat ourselves on the back for having waged. I was not referring to other conflicts around the world relating to the cold war, but simply the discussing the Vietnam war as instigated by the United States. When comparing the price paid by the United States to that paid by the People of Vietnam, and other parts of south east Asia, there is really no comparison.
ReplyDeletethis is a small detail, but McCain was not merely "captured by Vietnamese soldiers", but rescued from a lake by villagers who had been suffering for weeks from fire bombs dropped from planes on missions exactly like that that McCain was flying. Did they tear him limb from limb or torture him? No he was pulled out of a lake and saved from certain drowning given his broken limbs, and then given tea until communist soldiers arrived to take him away. From there he was of course imprisoned and endured years of torture and abuse by the communist authorities.
Arguments can be made over and over attempting to justify the evil of the Vietnam war by placing it in the larger contexts of the cold war and a global battle against communism a corrupt and often ruthless form of Gov, but all the intellectual posturing in the world wont bring back the villagers who were burned alive through the dropping of incendiary bombs, or butchered through search and destroy missions in free fire zones. Or the Vietnamese we still kill today through agent orange pollution and left over munitions.
I will grant you that is how most (certainly no all) Vietnamese in the North and their collaborators in the South viewed the war…not a war of ideological expansionism, but a war of independence. Our view of the matter was much different and of a much wider, global perspective. Your attempt to separate our wider geo-strategic objectives under the Truman doctrine from the context of the war itself is dishonest. It misrepresents our intentions and objectives. Your one-sided descriptions of the brutality of the war are also one-sided and dishonest. Were the communists engaged in handing out flowers and singing Kum-Ba-Ya while we were busy fire-bombing their villages for fun? No? Because that’s what you make it sound like. War is an ugly business and both sides fought to win.
ReplyDeleteAs for your description of John McCain’s treatment when he was pulled from the lake and politely offered cups of tea until the authorities arrived; please allow me to quote Mr. McCain himself as published in US News and World report:
Some North Vietnamese swam out and pulled me to the side of the lake and immediately started stripping me, which is their standard procedure. Of course, this being in the center of town, a huge crowd of people gathered, and they were all hollering and screaming and cursing and spitting and kicking me.
When they had most of my clothes off, I felt a twinge in my right knee. I sat up and looked at it, and my right foot was resting next to my left knee, just in a 90-degree position. I said, "My God--my leg!" That seemed to enrage them —I don't know why. One of them slammed a rifle butt down on my shoulder, and smashed it pretty badly. Another stuck a bayonet in my foot. The mob was really getting up-tight.
About this time, a guy came up and started yelling at the crowd to leave me alone. A woman came over and propped me up and held a cup of tea to my lips, and some photographers took some pictures. This quieted the crowd down quite a bit. Pretty soon, they put me on a stretcher, lifted it onto a truck, and took me to Hanoi's main prison. I was taken into a cell and put on the floor. I was still on the stretcher, dressed only in my skivvies, with a blanket over me.
For the next three or four days, I lapsed from conscious to unconsciousness. During this time, I was taken out to interrogation—which we called a "quiz"—several times. That's when I was hit with all sorts of war-criminal charges. This started on the first day. I refused to give them anything except my name, rank, serial number and date of birth. They beat me around a little bit. I was in such bad shape that when they hit me it would knock me unconscious. They kept saying, "You will not receive any medical treatment until you talk."
Now, I don’t know about you, but that sounds a little different than the way you describe it in your comment…yeah, I did read that there was tea involved but somehow it came across just a tad different that how your described it…don’t you agree?. That is what I mean by a few truths in an ocean of misrepresentations….
The Vietnamese communist were responsible for millions of deaths in Southeast Asia. Land reform policies, for which they quickly apologized, killed upwards of 100,000 people. Guerrilla tactics such as booby-traps, hidden bombs, and attacks against civilian targets meant to intimidate and terrorize killed thousands more. Torture was commonplace for captured enemy personal both in the field and at organized POW camps. Atrocities such as the Hue massacre of 5000 people are documented, and the re-education camps after the U.S. withdraw killed tens of thousand more directly and hundreds of thousands more indirectly through the creation of millions of refugees known as the boat people. If 4-5 million Vietnamese died as a result of the war, 4 million of which were civilian, then Communist forces were surely responsible for at least half that figure.
ReplyDeleteThe U.S. lead campaigns of carpet bombing and fire bombing that in total dropped more poundage of ordinance then in all of WW2, even when including the 2 atom bombs. The U.S. used anti-personal weapons such as napalm and white phosphorus fire bombs to incinerate targets and burn victims alive. These devices cause 4th and 5th degree burns that often can kill from pain alone, and burn so hot they burn underwater. These were used on all manner of targets including whole villages, make shift hospitals, and temples. The U.S. also engaged in search and destroy missions, body counts and free fire zones, thereby measuring the wars success through abstract and often inaccurate scorecard keeping which lead to many civilians being killed without any over-site or recourse. The line between a civilian and a fair target were often blurred and a "kill em all and let god sort em out" attitude sometimes prevailed. Agent orange also did untold damage to the people and countryside of Vietnam as well as too American soldiers. The Phoenix program practiced assignation liberally and we also had prisons that engaged in horrible torture with the use of tiger cages etc... and Personally I know of a hooker stabbed to death and stuffed in a barrel, If you killed a woman after raping or having sex with her you could gain the label of a "double veteran". Also a cargo truck being thrown into reverse on purpose simply to back over the Vietnamese workers loading the truck, which then sped away afterward as the driver laughed. Of executions and Assassinations and torture, trophy taking and sexual assault, sharp wooden spikes shoved up vaginas, etc...
It was an unbelievable ugly war, often full of racism, confusion, politics, corruption, and dishonesty. All war is horrible, but that is why you don't pat yourself on the back for having waged it and don't wage it unless the alternative is clearly worse. The alternative has to be worse then the loss of your soul, because that is what you sacrifice in war. At least if their is any justice in the afterlife. I don't believe the U.S. involvement in Vietnam passed that criteria.
As to the John McCain story, he is a man I respect and like. I believe him to be honorable and courageous. That does not mean I will vote for him, but I can still respect him. I'm sure your version, his account, of what happened is more accurate, and I take your point that my version downplayed the anger and animosity he experienced upon being pulled from the lake.
I have no doubt that undisciplined elements of our military occasionally engaged in ugly conduct that was not sanctioned. I have no doubt that our forces engaged in brutal tactics on occasion. This is sometimes necessary in efforts to achieve victory. Let us not forget that during World War Two we fire bombed Leipzig and Tokyo, we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we engaged in unrestrained, no-holds-bar, open warfare against the “Nips” and the “Krauts” (just as racists)… these were horrible if necessary tactics, but our wider objectives were noble…end the war, defeat fascism, make the world secure, prosperous and free for our children. Our generation has benefited greatly from the sacrifices of our parents. Many of us have grown up spoiled, fat and unfamiliar with meaning of sacrifice, or with sacrifices that were made so that we can be such a self-absorbed, whining child-like generation who passes moral judgment on history with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. Even if I was to grant you every characterization that you make about Vietnam, Our larger intentions were still noble. We were not there to conquer or make Vietnam the 51 state, but to halt the spread of a dangerous, totalitarian, expansionist ideology….; and in the end, we prevailed…not in Vietnam where we lost the battle, but in the larger war of which Vietnam was one front. Those who discuss Vietnam independent of its wider context and meaning are dishonest to themselves and to others, and in my opinion inadvertently disrespect the sacrifice of those who died in that effort. In essence you say that all those who died in Vietnam died in vain because if it was not part of the wider struggle to keep the world free than it was for nothing. On the other hand, if you do not take issue with our wider struggle against communist totalitarianism, then your complaint is merely one faulty tactics and faulty battlefield judgments. Fair enough. Perhaps we should have done this, or perhaps we should have done that…all in hindsight of course.
ReplyDeleteFrom your writings, I sense that you find no meaning in the sacrifices made in Vietnam and you are deeply bitter because of it. If only for the sake of those who perished, I urge you to view that war in its wider context, and then perhaps you will find at least some peace, and some meaning where you fail to find meaning now.
I've read the commentary back and forth between you two and have to say I find yours condescending and patronizing. You just regurgitated the same tired rationale for Vietnam that has been foisted on us by apologists for decades. So, using a similar brushoff, I would urge you to view Vietnam (and Iraq) outside your comfort zone and perhaps you will find more meaning in opinions not like yours where you fail to find meaning now. We support our troops by not letting our government wage senseless wars where the idea of dying in vain would ever come up in the first place. This is from a veteran called up after 9-11 who served honorably so please spare me the "you don't support the troops" rhetoric.
ReplyDeleteOf course, I never mention or implied anywhere that "you don't support our troops." Anyone who feels the need to defend himself from charges that were never made is himself a study in guilt.
ReplyDeleteAs for "not letting our Government".... you were elected to absolutely nothing. "Our government" on the other hand is accountable to the people in a constitutional representative democracy through direct elections. Of course, I don't always agree with our government, but I do honor its decisions as the collective will.
As for my "comfort zone", I am perfectly comfortable around those who disagree with me. On the other hand, judging from your hostile comments...you are not.
Just to be clear, the last post from Anonymous was from a different poster then myself. Ill sign with the name CW from now on. Thanks to the second anonymous as well as the matrix for the supportive comments.
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Reading the Matrix bio, I noticed that you listed military service i your experience. Did you serve in Vietnam?
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That is a legitimate and fair question. No, I did not serve in Vietnam; I am 47 years old and was too young. I am the son of a 100% Disabled American Veteran of the Korean conflict; A Captain in Strategic Air Command and recipient of the US Air Medal and veteran of countless bombing runs over North Korea. At the age of 18, I flew to Israel and volunteered to serve four years in an IDF paratrooper reconnaissance unit between 1979 and 1983. I experience much combat activity and participated in many counter-terrorist/insurgency operations, returning to the US in 1984. I hope that answers your question.
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